Malawi bloat?

[muddyboots]

So, my cichlids just got over ich. I continued treatment for another week, then removed 1/2 the copper-based medication (CopperSafe) and 1/2 the salt via a 50% water change, and started bringing the temperature down 1*C a day.

24 hours later the tank water got cloudy. I figure it's probably the biological filter from what I've found on Google although it doesn't smell bad. I tested the water -no ammonia, no nitrItes, ~15 nitrAte, which was within "safe", but I did a 50% water change anyway.

48 hours later the tank was even cloudier. Still no smell, all fish were acting normal except my male Pundamilia nyererei, which was swimming around, but kindof breathing a bit fast, looked a bit bloated, and he was not being as aggressive as he usually is. I tested the water again, got the same results, but did another 50% water change just to try to make the cloudiness go away.

That brings us to this morning when I found the male Pundamilia nyererei on the bottom of the tank, almost laying on his side and still breathing heavy. I removed him from the tank (he barely put up a fight when I netted him) and put him in a quarantine tank that I had set up about 2 weeks ago in preparation for getting the 2nd half of my cichlids for this tank this weekend. Looks like that ain't happening...

The rest of the cichlids all look ok. I've seen recommendations to treat bloat with Clout. So, I guess my question is A.) do you think my diagnosis of bloat is correct and B.) do you agree with Clout as the a good treatment? C.) what are the chances that the rest of my cichlids will be effected?

Any other advice or critique on what I've done so far is welcomed. I've had cichlids for less than a month now, so I'm definitely a newbie.

-Erica
muddyboots.org

[Mike]

Are you very sure your cichlids are sick??? It sounds like over medicating there should never be any reason why your water is cloudy unless your medicating in that tank which is highly not recommended. Always better to setup a Hospital tank.

All things aside for a second All this disease in the beginning sounds like NTS (New Tank Syndrome) which is more a state of adjustment or shock and rapid change than disease. Very often these symptoms are confused with sickness please read our article on NTS (New Tank Syndrome) on our homepage.

About Bloat and Clout
I will research this a bit more on the medication but I strongly recommend you post a few pictures of the conditions in the tank and pictures of the sick/stressed fish this will allow us to see more and guide you better in the right direction. But I really doubt your fish are sick and medicating them will kill them so this is very important I myself ran into NTS when I setup my first tank and I spent hundreds of $$$ trying to fix a problem that fixed itself with time and a bit of extra maintenance. I would have really loved the advice back then and would hate for you to do the same. Most pet stores will not tell you about NTS but they are quick to sell you meds to kill your fish so that they can sell you more.

Mike

[muddyboots]

Are you very sure your cichlids are sick??? It sounds like over medicating there should never be any reason why your water is cloudy unless your medicating in that tank which is highly not recommended. Always better to setup a Hospital tank.

Well, all this is happening after removing the meds and the salt. I don't think that I "over medicated" -the fish were fine while the copper treatment was in there. They crashed as it was being removed (slowly).

All things aside for a second All this disease in the beginning sounds like NTS (New Tank Syndrome) which is more a state of adjustment or shock and rapid change than disease. Very often these symptoms are confused with sickness please read our article on NTS (New Tank Syndrome) on our homepage.

I agree with the cause of the cloudiness, but the Pundamilia nyererei was definitely sick. I say "was" 'cause now he's dead. His stomach was distended -he looked like he was pregnant or something (although he's the only one that I know for a fact is male). The other 5 cichlids (including the female Pundamilia nyererei) all look fine, they are eating, and breathing normally.

Your Pundamilia nyererei
Your Victorian is in foreign waters with your Malawi's you have to remember the pH levels of the two different lakes. To him it feels like living with his head in a vice with lower pH levels this is why I do not recommend mixing rift lake cichlids with non rift lake cichlids until they adjust to the conditions your fish under go allot of stress. Many will agree and many will argue this but I have tested this and found my findings to be correct.

My water has a natural ph of 9 out of the tap and it settles down to 7.8 in the tank after 24 hours. The Pundamilia nyererei, according to what I've read is to be kept at 8.0 - 9.0 ...I'm not that far off. I doubt there's a 0.2 difference between "ok" and "head in a vice".

About Bloat and Clout
I will research this a bit more on the medication but I strongly recommend you post a few pictures of the conditions in the tank and pictures of the sick/stressed fish this will allow us to see more and guide you better in the right direction. But I really doubt your fish are sick and medicating them will kill them so this is very important I myself ran into NTS when I setup my first tank and I spent hundreds of $$$ trying to fix a problem that fixed itself with time and a bit of extra maintenance. I would have really loved the advice back then and would hate for you to do the same. Most pet stores will not tell you about NTS but they are quick to sell you meds to kill your fish so that they can sell you more.

The cloudiness in the tank can be seen here:
www.flickr.com/photos/erica_marshall/2280887180/
but it's about twice that bad now. That was a half a day after a water change.

The fish, well, he's dead, but his stomach looked exactly like this:
www.cichlid-forum.com/photos/art_malawi_bloat_01.jpg

It was bloat. I do not doubt that. I'd love to hear what to do about it next time and/or what the threat is that my other cichlids will get it as well. And advice on clearing up the water is still welcomed as well. Just keep in mind that:
* I'm testing the water religiously and I've never seen a hint of ammonia or nitrItes.
* NitrAtes are at 10-15ppm after 24 to 48 hours after a 50% water change.
* It's a 72gal tank with a 3 inch pleco, a 4 inch pleco, and there were six (now there are five) 2-inch long cichlids in there. That's it.

[shooter50014]

Very nice looking setup! I see a couple of trouble areas for you.

1) you have your sand pretty thick. I usually shoot for 1" and if more I add Malaysian trumpet snails to turn the gass pockets out of the sand.

2) the cloudy looks like maybe an bacteria bloom. did you overfeed , change diet, add fish, or ruin your cycled tank from the meds.

BE carefull treating to soon as sometimes treatment can be more harmful than good.

Basically I try not to medicate until a last resort. I have tanks to treat new fish and have them in there for 2 weeks. When I feel they are Heath I put them into my other tanks. I try to keep everything in groups of 4 of more some up to 24.

Try to make sure you are feeding the correct diet to your fish. IE if you feed mbunda meat for to long you will defiantly have bloat in the end. Feeding a balanced diet is best.

[Mike]

That is a very nice 72Gal Bow-front setup. Sorry to hear about your loss. I had an Angel that died showing those exact symptoms I too determined it to be bloat.

Kris makes a good point about the algae bloom could be the driftwood releasing fungus of some sort as well. To my knowledge the only thing that has ever clouded my tanks is overfeeding and when I have to buffer my water.


Mike

[Cichlidgirl]

There is some debate whether malawi bloat is caused by high fat/high protein diets, poor water conditions, a combination of both or even parasites. I recently figured out some supplimental diet foods for africans since i lean more toward the food being a major factor. (necropsies have shown fish that died of malawi bloat had liver damage and extreme fat build up, that with the herbavores specialized longer intestines might be too much for some fish. Especially aggressive feeders.

Here are some foods i have heard of for cichlids, this is a list for all cichlids and care should be taken when dealing with african species to avoid bloat. Add more to this list and discuss what you found using them when appropriate.


I start by selcting a all around floating and sinking african cichlid pellet food, i look for the lowest crude fat and crude protein i can find.

For herbavores and omnivores (even carnavores occationally):

Frozen peas
blanched zuccinni (boiled till soft, approx 5 min.) chopped small or bigger on a fork or clip
seaweed, cheaper to buy for human consumption in the grocery store (international aisle for making , sushi rolls, ironic i know LOL)
broccoli florets (blanched till softened)
green beans canned or blanched fresh
lettuce
shredded carrot (dont use so much you foul your tank)
blanched squashes of many varieties
blanched and fresh cabbage
algea (green)that is grown in a tank specificly for african cichlid fry


have not tried rice grains, but wonder if soft dry rice grains (like from minute rice) would be eaten or if good for them?

Omnivore and carnavores

african species should have extreme care taken when offering any of these high protein items,( i do not give mine any of these. except krill )I have used several of them on my new world cichlids and they were readily accepted .

mass produced worms of all types are known disease carriers and should be used selectively and be clean and disease free.

trout pellets
beef heart (non african species only)
feeder fish (safe clean sources only)
shiners for fishing (safe clean sources only)
crickets
night crawlers
shrimp made for people (i used cooked shrimp )
krill (freeze dried for aquarium use)
tubiflex worms
blood worms
cooked diced chicken meat
Dog and cat food (i dont like it personally and have never put it in my tank, fouls tanks if not done properly)
unwanted fry from other species of prolific breeders
insects (house flies are bad for fish from what i have heard, dont know if true but i heard that somewhere)
grubs
slugs (they are gross and slimey and very tough, my oscars tried desperatly to eat them but were unable to chew them up. nasty LOL)


This should get the discussion going.

[muddyboots]

I know the gravel is too thick, but I have real plants and it's the only way to anchor them. If this causes bloat, I'll have to get less sensitive fish. I'm kinda keen on natural vs artificial plants.

The driftwood's been in there for over a year with no fish loss before I got ich in a batch of coldwater fish about 6 months ago.

They've been eating Hikari cichlid food supplemented with brine shrimp on the weekends (the day before water change 'cause it's messy ). They haven't been given excessive meat, and while I mean to get them veggies, I haven't yet because so much of it ends up going to waste (I hate veggies!).

As far as a possible algae bloom, I looked at the tank from the side this morning and yep, it's green. I guess the black background wasn't allowing me to see the color before (?). My nitrates are high, which I read that the algae likes... So, I'm working on feeding less (I use the floating Hikari Gold baby-sized cichlid pellets) -the fish seem to never be satisfied, though, so I've been feeding a lot. I was pretty sure they were eating it all though. (Maybe not?) -I may switch to the mini-sized pellets instead. (I have some, but they were too big for their mouths when I got them a month ago. They're kinda big for them now, but I think they'll be able to make due -they've grown a lot in a month!)

I have the tank lights off now. I think I'll leave them off except when feeding for a few days to see if that helps. Then I'll turn just 1/2 on at a time at the beginning and see how that works. (Since December I've had a 4X54W lighting setup with 1/2 daylight bulbs and 1/2 actinic.)

I read that those cloudy water clarifiers help get rid of algae by binding the free-floating cells together and making them easier to filter out. So, I'm looking into whether that's a good idea to solve the immediate problem, then maintain the clear water by watching how much I feed.

Afterthought: -I was definitely over-feeding during the ich treatment because I was worried my pleco wasn't up to the task of getting what he needed from the sides of the tank and he never gets to eat the algae wafers I through in because the cichlids devour it first, so I was alternating between using weekend feeder blocks and leaving bits of cucumber in the tank overnight once a week during treatment. That stopped over 2 weeks ago now, though, and the water's been changed at least 3 times over since then, so I'm not sure that that's the cause. Blah. When do I get a pretty care-free tank again?

[Cichlidgirl]

A really good veggie suppliment is seaweed, i go to the grocerystore and in the international isle in the asian foods there is ususually the dried seaweed for making sushi rolls, very cheap and you get a huge packet of it.

I take a small peice (about the size of 3 postage stamps) let it get wet and soft, then rub it together and it flakes off tiny bits , they get into a frenzy and snap it up.

The first time or two that you feed it they might not be sure what it is and whether they like it or not, keep feeding it and in a couple days they will love it, i have done this myself and also helped several other people get their fish (mbuna) to eat it. !00 percent success rate so far LOL. I also noticed that the peacocks i have love this seaweed too, as much if not more than the mbuna, who would have thought?

I would not use the water clarifier if i were you, i used some once when i had a algea bloom and one fish died and 2 others were stressed, i dont know if it was from the algeacide or the clarifier? I would think anything that was sticky might stick to the gills. They had labored breathing . Thats why i think it was the clarifier.

I doubt the driftwood is a issue for making the water cloudy if you have had it for a year.

Just curious if the fish that got the suspected bloat was a very aggressive eater, did he usually eat so much he got a extended fat belly after feeding? I have two fish that eat like crazy and i have to watch them, i wouldnot be suprised if either one of them ends up sick because of over eating. Their bellies normally do not stick out at all and after eating they have fat little bellies but i dont know how to prevent them from over eating , they run around and snap up half the pellets(8 or 9) while the other fish eat 3 LOL.
CG

[muddyboots]

Yeah, the guy that died was "head hancho" of the tank and he and the 2 acei gobble up a ton of food before the 2 yellow labs or the female can even get their first bite. I've been trying to cut the food down while dealing with the cloudy water / algae bloom -whatever it is, but it's tough because feeding less means the meeker fish only get a nibble or two while the acei still get lots.

I got some water clarifier that was said to be safe for all fish and plants and put it in yesterday at 5/7ths of a dose, then again this morning at 5/7ths of a dose. It says you can double the dose if the water is really cloudy, so I assume this is safe. So far it's not working, however, and I expect to come home tonight to nearly opague water.

The problem is, I'm having to do 80% water changes daily in order to be able to see the back of the tank. That's why I tried the clarifier -I think it's safer for them than such extreme water changes so frequently. The ph of my water out of the tap is 9, but the drift wood buffers it to 7.8 in about 24 hours, so it's going up and down by that much daily along with the chlorine (I use water conditioner, but...). There's a balance to be had about the risk of using the clarifier, and I considered it to be worth a shot at the time.

I'm not sure what else to do. I have a feeling I'm going to have to keep doing oober maintenance and just wait it out. I do get a tiny stream of direct sunlight for a few hours daily (which has never been a problem before) -I blocked that. I'm feeding less, I have my lights on 1/2 power (so I have a 54W daylight and a 54W actinic).

Blah.

[Cichlidgirl]

For your food/feeding issues: I had a similar problem with my big tank when i had my fronts in with the haps and peacocks, i had the haps and peacocks running around in a frenzy getting all the food and the slow moving fronts on the bottom who got nothing. I solved the problem by opening up both sides and on one side i drop in the floating african cichlid pellets and at the same moment on the other side i drop in the sinking small african cichlid pellets for the fronts, the peacocks are too busy racing around on the surface snapping up their pellets to notice or chase down the sinking pellets until the floating ones are all gone. By that time the fronts have ate most of what they want or need and any left overs are eaten by the peacocks and haps with the bad table manners LOL.

If its white the bloom is likely bacterial, unless the driftwood is unseasoned and then it will be a fungus, it will cloud a tank over night no matter how many waterchanges you do, try boiling the driftwood in a pot of water at a low simmer for about 3 to 4 hours then put it back in a fairly clean tank after it cools a bit. See if the white water stays away. If it does then you know the problem was the driftwood fungus. Because you boiled it the fungus should not come back either. If it does boil it for a couple more hours then it should be good. But like we discussed earlier i doubt the wood is the problem if it has been in the tank for a year or more with no trouble, this fungus shows up with in a day or two on new wood pieces.

CG